Interview with Robert O’Brien for GAL

I have had the privilege of knowing Robbie for at least 5 years through the local Colorado Luthiers community. I have taken several of his classes and feel that I can attest to his love of teaching and spreading the knowledge of guitar building throughout Colorado and the rest of the world. It was my privilege to sit down with him at his shop in Parker, Colorado and get to know him a little better.

     
Let’s start with some history. Tell us a little about yourself?

I was born in Nuremberg, Germany. My folks were in the military. I don’t have German citizenship and I don’t speak German. I was there for about a year and a half before moving back to the states. I grew up in the South, in Atlanta, Georgia. My father was a commercial pilot and my mother was a housewife.

What was your first experience with Music?

I took piano lessons at a very young age maybe 4th or 5th grade. As ayoung kid I had no interest in piano at all so that didn’t last long. My father had a guitar that a buddy of his bought for him when he was in the service. I took a brief interest in that. I was maybe 8 or 9 years old and that didn’t last very long either. I was into sports. That was the last contact I had with music until I was about 23 years old.

At 23 I happened to be living in Brazil. I had a business partner that came in one day with this old beat up guitar and started playing some beautiful bosss nova and samba tunes, and I said “Hey! That’s pretty good. I’d like to learn how to do that.”

How did you wind up in Brazil?

I was a missionary in Sao Paulo, Brazil in the 80’s. When I left Brazil I made myself 3 promises. First I would never go back. I had seen the third-world side of it. The second promise was that I would never eat rice and beans again, because you eat rice and beans every day! And promise number three was to never take public transportation again. Riding around on a crowded bus in 100 degree weather, hanging out the back with sweaty individuals was something I just didn’t enjoy.

When I got back to the states in 1986 I was working as a “Ramp Rat” in Atlanta for Pan Am. While throwing suitcases, I was going to pre-med school to be a chiropractor. At the same time I had another job working part time for a jeweler. From my time as a missionary I had a connection in Brazil through a friend who owned an emerald mine. We were talking one day at the store and my boss asked if I could get some. I said sure. Six months later I was back on a plane to Brazil.

I did that 2 or three times over the course of about a year. I got qualified for the chiropractic school and was just burned out. I mean, working two jobs, full time school, just burned me out. So around 1987 I had a buddy in Brazil say “Hey. Why don’t you come down? Take a little vacation and clear your head out.” I said “Sure!” and got a 30 day ticket. At the end of the 30 days I tore up the ticket and stayed for 10 years.

So this is when your friend brought in the guitar?

Yes, at that time I was teaching English as a second language and was also going to medical school in Brazil. I decided to take up the oriental medicine side of things and went to Acupuncture school. While I was doing that to support myself I taught English. Initially it was at somebody else’s school then I partnered with some guys and we opened our own school and did very well.

Still in São Paulo?
Yes, São Paulo. One of my partners was from London and he brought in the guitar and I was like “Ahh! That’s Cool! Gotta learn that!” So I went out and bought a cheap guitar, got myself a teacher and started studying. Then I started getting into music; buying cassettes of Tom Jobim, Brazilian popular music and things like that and really starting to enjoy it. Through the course of several years I finished my medical degree in Brazil. The language business was also doing very well but I was tired of what I was doing.

So one day, in around 1991 I believe, I thought I really want to study music seriously. I thought I could do it now or one day say “I wish I would have.” So, I remember pushing back from my desk, going into my partner’s office and saying “It’s yours”. I’ll take the secretary and you get the business. I married the secretary and went back to the States, to Atlanta where I grew up. There is a very good music program at Clayton State College. So I signed up for a music degree in Classical Guitar Performance.

Did you graduate?

Yes, I graduated. It was interesting because when I got there I thought, well heck, I studied two or three years in Brazil with a private teacher so I thought I kind of knew my stuff. Then I got in with guys who had been studying since they were five and I didn’t pick up the guitar seriously until I was twenty three! I knew I had some work to do. So I put in 8 to 10 hours a day studying, applied for a scholarship and got it. I finished the degree in 1995. Later when I was in Brazil again learning to build guitars, the guy who taught me said “Either you play or you build”. This is very true. So my rehearsal and performance time is very limited now.

Let’s begin to explore how you got started building guitars. Do you have any woodworking background?

While I was studying music I was also building a house. One day on the way home from school I stopped and bought a chainsaw and started cutting down trees. I met a guy who had done the same thing about 10 years earlier and he invited me to his house. He showed me the post and beam construction. I did some research and started building.

As I was building the house neighbors would come by and say “Hey that’s pretty good. Can you…” and I’d say “sure!” So, I built several houses for other people and got into the high end construction work, cabinet work and custom building.

About the time I finished school, I had a two and a half story timber frame house. The quality and craftsmanship improved as I built the house.

Is it still there?

Oh yeah, it’s still standing.

It’s interesting that your experience with guitars and woodworking were so independent. How and when did they begin to merge together?

Once I finished my music degree and had finished the house, I had the opportunity of opening an acupuncture clinic in Brazil. In 1997 I had no kids, I was young, I had married the girl from Ipanema, so it seemed like the thing to do. That’s when I met António Tessarin. He is one of the most sought after luthiers in Brazil. I had gone to a three day classical guitar workshop. There I met someone who had just built his own guitar in a class offered by Mr. Tessarin.

I remember calling António and asking him if he would teach me. He said “NO!” Apparently he had a bad experience with the course he was teaching. Guys weren’t very serious. So he turned me down right there.

I remember my sister in Atlanta sent me the old LMI catalog. You know the one in the binder with the photos? I was going through this thing drooling over everything. I started adding up the price of the kit, tools, etc. I had to import everything so it was expensive. After seeing the total I decided it wasn’t going to happen.
My wife said “No, no, you need to do this. This is a good thing for you.” I don’t know if she was just trying to get me out of her hair or motivate me. I’m where I am today because of her.

When I got the materials from LMI I realized this is just a box of lumber. No plans, no instructions, no nothing! Out of desperation I called Tessarin. We call him Tessarin in Brazil instead of António. This time he was more receptive to the idea of teaching me. He said “Why don’t you come to my shop next Saturday?” So I did. I must have been quite the sight with an LMI kit in one hand and Cumpiano’s book in the other. And that’s how it all began. I owe a huge debt to Tessarin. Like the rest of us, his time is at a premium. He works 24-7 but when I would arrive for our Saturday classes he would put all his projects aside and help me build. Now I realize years later what a sacrifice that was for him. I am very grateful.

Did you build any more guitars together after the Kit?

Over about two or three years I built several guitars with him. I really enjoyed it. We have become really good friends and communicate on a regular basis even today.

I lived in Brazil another four or five years and built about a dozen or so guitars. The first few with Tessarin under his supervision and the rest on my own. I lived in a small studio apartment and also had a workbench, small portable table saw, small jointer, small band saw and some hand tools. I used to mill lumber in this apartment! I don’t know how I am still married. I had lumber stashed under the cabinets, under the bed. It was crazy. I built several guitars there. I remember the small area I had to work in I could stand in the middle and touch all four walls.

What eventually brought you to Colorado?

By that time I had been in Brazil for about twelve years on and off. I would come to Colorado to go skiing every year. My sister lived here and one year I was here in the summertime and there was no humidity! I grew up in the South, and lived in Brazil so no humidity was a nice change! At that time I used to do a lot of surfing on the internet to get contacts for businessmen that I would teach in Brazil. There was a recruiting site that needed Portuguese and English speaking executives in Denver, Colorado.

When was this?

This was in 2000. So I called them. Turns out they were a headhunter for a company here in Denver. Long story short, thirty days later I am sitting behind a desk in a cubical during a snowstorm in Denver thinking what have I done? 9/11 rolls around and the company downsized and so they let me go. So, the next day I threw on my tool belt and went back to my woodworking skills and started building houses in Colorado. I did high end construction work, basement finishes things like that. During that time I was still building guitars on my own. Then I decided that I wanted to learn how to build period furniture: 1700 – 1800 high end furniture. I knew about Red Rocks Community College so I called them to learn about their program. The director asked me to bring in a portfolio and I also took a guitar. When I opened the case he asked if I wanted to teach. I said “I guess so.” He said “Here is the deal. We don’t have a lutherie department. You’re going to start it.” I said OK.

That was in 2003?

Yes, the middle of 2003. I started with eleven classical students. In the space of about nine years, I developed the lutherie program to over a hundred students a semester. We were the premier guitar Lutherie school in Colorado, perhaps the Nation. We had guys coming from all over to study with us. In those nine years, my students alone built over 500 classical and steel string guitars. That’s a lot of guitars! We also offered electric guitar building, mandolin building, violin building, setup and repair, and finishing. When I left the school I was running the entire Fine Woodworking program with over 400 students a semester.

What was the breakdown between classical and steel string?

I would say 60% steel string and 40 % classical. I used to have two steel string classes to one classical class. I got a lot of hands on experience not only with my guitars but with my students’guitars. That went on until just last year, 2012, when I decided to go out on my own.

During the time when I was at Red Rocks, I was also teaching privately. I had three months off a year, one month at Christmas and two months off during the summer. During these breaks I had guys coming in from all over the world to learn guitar building and finishing from me. I have been in teaching for over 25 years so the teaching aspect is really fun.

That brings us up to date. A lot of history there and it tells a great story. I see a lot of teaching; from your English as a second language in Brazil to your time at Red Rocks and in your personal shop. Let’s get into what I see as your passion for teaching and getting the knowledge you have in guitar building to a larger audience. How did the Tips De Jour videos start?

One day back in 2008 I was in the shower. It seems most of my ideas come to me in the shower. YouTube was just starting to be very popular and I thought it was a great platform for getting out educational information. So I decided to create an educational video series about lutherie and called it Luthier Tips Du Jour. I knew nothing about video work. I grabbed my little video camera and started shooting and then I went to edit it. That was a nightmare! Let’s just say it has been a huge learning curve and I almost gave up on several occasions. I guess I must have done something right as LMI asked if they could put the videos on their web site. I said sure. Once again it’s about the sharing of information.


I first stumbled across the Luthier Tips Du Jour videos on The Luthier Forum site. There was a link and I checked it out. Really nicely put together. The videos seem pretty popular

Thanks. About a year or two into doing the Tips Du Jour videos I was out at the Healdsburg Guitar festival talking to one of the people at LMI. He said do you realize that you have over three and half hours of video on YouTube? This was back around 2009. I thought pretty soon I am going to have my whole build sequence out there for free! But what the heck. It’s benefiting a lot of people. I have over 2.7 million hits on YouTube, and over 8000 subscribers. So in the Guitar building/Lutherie community, the more knowledge we can get and share, the more everyone benefits. And that’s the cool thing about the Guild. It’s all about sharing knowledge.


So I guess because of the YouTube channel, I see you also have a good presence on Facebook. Do you use a lot of social media? I don’t see a lot of Luthiers doing that, you seem to be the exception.

It’s kind of a necessary evil these days. I don’t really know a lot about this stuff. During my classes I post daily progress reports and put them out on Facebook and my website blog. Folks seem to like that and can follow along as we build.

That must take a lot of your time.

Huge amount of time! I get hundreds of emails a day. I’ll spend several hours in the morning on the computer answering emails before going to my shop. I get emails from all over the world, guys asking me questions and commenting on my work. It has increased due to my online courses. 20 years ago, how would you get that kind of feedback? How would a guy in Germany learn about O’Brien Guitars? Now because of social media and the Internet, I routinely have students come to study with me from all over the world.

Let’s talk about building and your philosophy on style. I know a lot of people who are incredibly traditional in their methods and they don’t deviate from the way they built back in the 18^th century. Others are more in the radical space with fan frets and double tops. Where do you fit in that?

Everything is valid. Unlike the Violin family that has evolved to where it’s probably going to evolve, the guitar hasn’t. It’s still evolving. There is still more we can get from that instrument. I consider myself a traditionalist. I build traditional fan braced classical guitars and X-braced steel string guitars.
I don’t think I can exhaust all the possibilities of the fan brace or X brace in my lifetime.
I have done the composite tops. I’ve done the double tops and carbon fiber, sure, why not? That’s how I make my living I have to know about that stuff. My heart lies in the traditional acoustic and that’s why I build the traditional fan and X-Brace designs.

And you mostly take your body designs from Hauser, Torres? Where do you see that coming from?

It’s not exactly the Hauser, It not exactly the Torres. It’s my own design. But classical guitars deviate very little, we’re talking millimeters. So I’ve tried deeper bodies, shallow bodies, a few millimeters longer from the heel block to the end block. My design deviates very little from the traditional size and shape. I studied the masters before moving on to the experimentation stage though. I encourage all my students to learn basic math before moving on to Algebra so to speak.

Same thing with Finishing?

Done it all! My classical guitars, because of the price bracket I’m in, guys expect French polish. Occasionally I’ll do a urethane or lacquer back and sides with a French polish top just to have the protective aspect. On my steel string guitars, because of the marketability again, High Gloss lacquer, urethane or UV cured polyester.


I know some who spend a lot of extra time hand making everything from rosettes to even the truss rods. With your teaching, how much time do you have for this?

Most of what I do is hand made. And that’s one of the things in my online course I try to emphasize is hand tools. There are a lot of guys around the world who don’t have access to the power tools we have here. So being able to build with hand tools is important. Not only that but I think it’s a talent. It’s an art to be able to take something from your mind and express it through your arm into your chisel and produce it. So I like the hand tool aspect. I’m not opposed to power tools, I have to make a living, so I do some of that.


Do you dabble in Inlay at all?

Sure. On the steel string guitar occasionally I do some. What I have figured out though is the more bling on your guitar; the harder it is to sell. That’s a hard lesson I learned. I have done inlay, marquetry and that kind of stuff. Those guitars took me longer to sell. The traditional cutaway, dark woods, great sound, that’s what has sold for me.

Do you have a preference in wood selection for your guitars?

I’m pretty much a traditionalist in the classical sense because that’s what folks expect. So either Indian or Brazilian rosewood for back and sides, spruce or cedar tops, cedar necks, rosewood bridge and bindings. Pretty traditional. I also enjoy working with cypress and maple. On my steel string guitars usually rosewood or mahogany for the back and sides spruce tops, mahogany necks, basic stuff.

What are your thoughts on Spruce VS Cedar for Classical tops? I get a lot of clients who want the immediate warm sound that Cedar gives you.

My first 20 or so guitars were cedar tops. I played a cedar top in college. I really enjoyed the cedar sound. I had dialed in my tone on cedar. Then one day a guy asked me for a spruce top guitar. So, over the next few years I did another 20 or so spruce top guitars and dialed that in. Now I have a good grasp of the tone on both cedar and spruce classical tops. I think I am more partial to spruce now days; especially as a player. Maybe that’s the Romanillos influence. I like the spruce sound, I like the trebles.

I’ve talked to a lot of builders who are striving to find that particular sound. What are you looking for in the sound of your guitars?

I just try to make the guitar the best that I possibly can. Better than the previous one. And so far everyone has been better. I have been very blessed in that area. Kent Everett taught me something when I was studying with him. He said that in the English language we have a huge vocabulary for describing a glass of fine wine. But we do not have vocabulary for describing sound. So when you talk about tone, that is so subjective. What is tone? What does that mean? And the “Tone” that I like as a player, may be different than what you like. I’ve had people pick up my guitar and say “It’s not the guitar for me”. Another guy picks it up and says “Oh Man! This is the best guitar I’ve ever played!”

Do you think it is more about playability or sound?

It’s the complete package. It’s the visual, it’s the feel, it’s the whole nine yards. I go for more of a traditional sound. I like my guitars to be easily playable. You don’t want to have to work to play them. I’ve had guys come into my shop and say “Man my guitar is just so much effort to play.” And these are professional players. And they grab one of my guitars and say “Ah. This feels good.”

So I shoot for easy playability. The tone, I know what I like. I try and build for what I like. Now I don’t know if that is the right thing to do business wise. You should be building for your client. Now hopefully the client has come to me because they have heard or even played my guitars and want one like that. I feel very comfortable that I can reproduce that.

If a client comes to you and says I’m looking for a specific tone or something, do you think based on the skills you have and the hundreds of guitars you have built or helped build you could accommodate them?

I have an idea how to accommodate them.
When I was in Spain studying with José Romanillos he told me a very interesting story. Now he has built hundreds of guitars. He’s been at it for over 50 years. He said “I never really know what I’m going to get until I put the top on, get it done and the guitar is built.” He’s been at it for 50 years! So I would like to say “Oh Yeah. No Problem. This is the sound you want? Sure. I can do it.” But I never really know until I get the guitar completed. You can build 3 guitars with the same specs and they are all different.
Over the years I’ve refined things. I can say that I am very consistent with the tone I get. I can reproduce that. Now whether or not you’re going to like it, I don’t know. I like it.

I notice that even though you have been doing this for over 15 years, you are still taking classes with other prominent builders. Always trying to learn new things.

Sure. I have studied with renowned builders in three different countries. I also learn from every one of my students. With the 500 guitars I built with the students up at the school, that’s a lot of experimentation. I have benefited from that.
So I’m constantly doing research on the internet, talking to builders. Fortunately, I’ve got a little bit of a name now and I can call people and they actually answer my calls! I learn a lot that way. This past year I had the opportunity to study with José Romanillos in Spain. What a great experience! He was even gracious enough to let me interview him for my YouTube channel. Once again, back to that aspect of sharing knowledge. José let me clip the microphone on him and just start asking questions. He answered freely about all aspects of his life, how he got into building all that kind of stuff. So it’s all there for free. Go take advantage of it!

So, what does the future hold for you?

I don’t know. Craftsmen, we’re a dying breed and we have been for many years. First of all people may not have the money to invest in quality handmade objects and second we are a throw away generation where things are disposable.
In the Luthiere world we have the environmental aspect as well. The LACEY act, CITES… Will we have access to the materials we need to build these fine instruments?

I had a guy a few years ago at the college bring in a guitar to have some repair done on it. I wandered over to his bench. From a distance it looked like a beautiful guitar with mahogany back and sides. Upon closer inspection it was Formica. Is this where we’re going? Are we going to composites, carbon fiber, Formica? I think the next generation is really not going to know what a hand crafted fine wooden instrument sounds like. Maybe in the library of congress we’ll have recordings of it one day.
I like the experimentation going on, double tops etc. but we need to have access to materials. That’s going to be a major aspect to this.

I remember when I first met Kent Everett in the 90s. He introduced me to the Guild. They had just come out with this new book called the Big Red Book of Luthiere Vol 1. So I bought it and started reading on the plane ride back to São Paulo. One of the articles was from a convention where Kent and a couple other guys on a panel were talking about Lutherie as a business. I was so depressed when I got done reading. Instead of giving me encouragement, it was basically saying, “run while you can”. Fortunately I didn’t do that. But it was very eye opening and very discouraging at the same time.

I’ve been very blessed that people have found me and are even willing to pay me for my knowledge. A guy in Brazil told me once it doesn’t matter what you do in life, the main thing is to become good at what you do. Once you become good at what you do, others will seek your services. So in anything I’ve done in life, I’ve tried to do it the best of my abilities and become very good at it. Now, I’m still learning at lutherie but I have arrived at enough of a level of knowledge that other people are seeking me out for what I am able to give to them. That’s a cool position to be in. Humbling, but cool.